This is a follow-up to our podcast episode Toss THIS Salad Out!
If you were Part of a Salad, Which part would you be?
It’s been my privilege to hire hundreds of people in my decades of leadership, either directly or as a final approver. You learn a lot about how effective you are as an interviewer after you’ve been doing this for a while - I know I did. For those who don’t interview regularly, this critical step in the hiring process can be awkward, uninformative, misrepresenting for both parties, and all too often, illegal.
The feeling one gets at most job interviews is that of being interrogated and then scored against others. Okay, that’s essentially true, but the interview process in and of itself often exacerbates this in an unnecessary and unhelpful fashion. For instance, the unskilled interviewer often dominates the session, asking random rapid-fire questions which are frequently tricky (read stupid) and irrelevant. This causes both parties to feel unnatural and uncomfortable immediately, and in the end, it serves no useful purpose unless your goal is to lower the company’s Glassdoor ratings.
I recently ran into a colleague who was interviewing for an advancement position in their company. That’s awesome, I said, and asked, who is interviewing you? The answer was a few people from leadership, a second interview with the team members they would lead, and a final interview with the person making the hiring decision.
Sounds like a good plan, right? No, it’s a horrible plan, and here’s why I think so.
I bet no one at the company will prepare well for the interview except for the applicant. There will be no pre-interview meeting to coordinate and set goals for measuring the results. I’ll further my bet that few - or more likely no one interviewing - will be trained in the legal aspects associated with what can and cannot be asked. Finally, I’ll double down and bet that nearly every interviewer, including all the team members, will Google “best interview questions” 30 minutes before their meeting time.
You’re laughing! I can see you through the internet. I see some uneasy laughter from those of you who followed or follow those steps. I see frightened laughter from trained HR professionals, and I see the employment barristers belly laughing with impish glee.
But there’s nothing funny about this. People applying for jobs are very serious about what landing a tremendous next opportunity means to them and their families. They look forward to - and hope and pray - that this time the interview will be different and pleasurable. They want to be led to answer relevant and meaningful questions about how they can contribute and succeed, and they also want to know if this is the right job for them. The latter is so difficult for the applicant to explore because the classic interview process is very one-way and in favor of the employer by design.
Let’s change this. Let’s get to hiring people by axing the antiquated ways and means of interviewing, replacing those with a modern approach that protects everyone’s rights, creates an atmosphere of helpful conversation, and is measurable. I’d like to share my approach to this.
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No one interviews a candidate unless they received current training (and testing) on what is and is not legal to ask.
Don’t subject your company to an Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) lawsuit - and worse, put a candidate in the position of seeking remedy due to unfair treatment.
In federal law, discriminatory questions about age, ethnicity, gender preference, etc., are all off-limits - Google this. Be mindful and stay clear of so-called proxy questions that look innocent but are not. Examples include: When did you graduate from high school? Do you have any children? What’s your spouse’s name? Isn’t it a far drive for you to get here? Think about these proxy questions. Can you see how they can be used to gather inappropriate information?
Aside from the federal laws, each State or Commonwealth may set its laws that expand on applicant protection. For instance, California introduced a law - AB168 - that bars employers from inquiring about a job applicant’s salary history and makes it a misdemeanor offense if one does. AB168 further requires employers to disclose a salary range for the position when asked. Other jurisdictions may establish different rules of which you must be aware. Bottom line: make sure every interviewer is trained.
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Interview one on one and provide interviewers with a ‘theme’ to explore
Avoid the Gang Interview unless you’re intentionally trying to intimidate the applicant. (It might be appropriate only if you’re hiring them to be part of an organized crime family.) My advice is to select three trained people to interview the applicant, one at a time, and provide each with a specific theme to explore.
Themes in this regard include examples such as understanding the applicant’s technical acumen, their interaction and sociability skills, perhaps assessing industry knowledge or previous experiences. Themes vary a bit industry by industry - pick the three most important to you.
Each interviewer centers on their theme and does not deviate too far from it in the conversation. Agree in advance on the objectives and what you wish to learn about the applicant from each theme. After the round of interviews is finished, the interviewers can discuss the themes and deduce the applicant’s attributes, strengths, and challenges in a measurable and coordinated way.
Parenthetically, one of the most gratuitous fails is what I call the courtesy interviewer. This is a person brought in to interview the applicant with no real purpose other than to make that person feel as if they were ‘included’ in the process; what a waste of everyone’s time.
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Stop “team interviews” - Instead, Host a “Meet and Greet.”
When choosing an applicant as a new member of an existing team, or a new leader for that team, the most unfair thing you can do, in my opinion, is asking the group to “interview” that person; that’s not their job.
I’ve never seen anything good come from this tactic, and most of the time, it can end up being an illegal and confusing mess for all. Just calling it by its commonly used phrase “team interview” sets you and your company up for trouble. Are all teams members truly prepared and versed in what can and cannot be asked during the interview process? It only takes one inappropriate question or comment by an uninformed team member to trigger a potential legal issue or compromise the entire interview process. I’ve watched it happen all too often.
Instead, and if you feel it’s absolutely necessary (think hard about that), ask your final candidates if they would like to stop by for an informal Meet and Greet with the team. It’s an excellent opportunity to bring in snacks or a lunch and make this a social event but set the rules in advance.
Advise the candidate ahead of time that you’d like them to chat it up and tell the team about themselves - take about five minutes or so to do that. Instruct the team members to do the same and to add a little about what they do at the company. Specifically, tell the candidate and the team that this is not part of the formal interview; instead, it’s simply a chance for everyone to meet and get to know each other a little better. End it promptly at 30 minutes and afterward get the team together. Ask only one question, “... what did you folks think about Mr. Jones?” Do not drill in any further. You’re just listening for clues about the interaction and getting an impression of how that person would integrate with others.
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Do not ask salad questions!
Miss Jones, may I ask ma’am if you were part of a salad, and you could be any part of that salad, and if it was a garden salad, organic of course, with a gluten-free dressing, precisely what part of that salad would you be and why?
With all due respect to the creator of salad questioning, this is insane! We are not trained psychologists, and even if we were, we don’t know why we are even asking the stupid question in the first place. If someone asked me that, my polite answer would be - Sir … I’d be the one eating your salad.
Don’t ask Google to give you interview questions, your applicant already asked Google for the answers.
It’s up to you to come up with your own questions that you want to be answered. Do a little work in advance based on your theme. Remember you are attempting to see if the applicant can integrate well into that theme and how well compared to other applicants.
For instance, if you are taking on the technology theme role and you’re looking for a welder for your automotive parts business, ask open-ended welding questions. Mr. Jones, how do you decide when to use TIG over MIG welding when both could be used appropriately? If you’re interviewing utilizing the interaction and sociability theme, and you’re in health care looking to fill a position for a patient care advocate, ask open-ended questions about patient interaction. Miss Jones, do you think the HIPAA laws are easy for patients to understand?
The goal here is to allow the applicant to talk and tell. You are simply there to guide them in the right direction.
Here’s a good rule: If you don’t know what answer you are looking for, don’t ask that question.
Interview me!
This is my favorite theme, and I schedule it first before all other theme interviews. It’s fun, straightforward, requires little prep ahead of time, and immediately favors the applicant. I also believe it provides the most valuable exchange of information to both parties.
Hi Sarah, my name is Dave, welcome to the XYZ company! I’m so glad you were able to spend some time with us today; we’re all looking forward to learning more about you. Sarah, generally, I’m not too fond of the pressure of the interview process, and I know you need to know if XYZ is a place where you would want to work, so let’s turn the tables around. I have no questions for you. Your resume looks fine - take 30 minutes and interview me!
Bazinga - two crucial events in the interview process just occurred contemporaneously. Sarah is now the star of the show. She knows she’s on stage and must perform, and you sent an important message - at XYZ company, the employees come first.
For the next 30 minutes, you ask nothing. You do not coach or lead the candidate, and you just answer the questions they ask and allow them to freeform their way to the end. Yes, there might be a little nervousness in the beginning, let that pass. Even if the applicant is quiet for what might seem like an uncomfortable period of time, say nothing and give the applicant time to compose.
What are you looking for here? Some examples include:
- How well does the candidate take over the interview process? Are they able to pivot well? After all, for some, it will be a bit of a surprise.
- What are the types of questions they ask? Do the questions go toward what they feel is important to them in landing a new job?
- Does the candidate seem to be a natural leader or a follower? By asking a person to essentially "take over" like this, you can get some clues.
Besides those, what are some of the other valuable insights you can discover by using the Interview Me technique? As a candidate, how can prepare for this? Let's chat about it!
In the end, this is an exciting and modern way to begin to know your candidate as you both learn what is important early in the process. I guarantee that you will glean so much more about that person than you will through any other canned interview technique. Try it.
I wish you good luck with the next interview. Let us know how it goes!
Dave
