If Employees Could Talk

"If Employees Could Talk"

My Job Here is Done™ Transcript (for general use only – machine-generated and it may not be accurate.) 

Language Disclaimer (00:00) This episode contains colorful language which may not be appropriate in all situations. Shhh ... Turn it down a bit.

Kelli (00:08) If employees could talk?

Dave (00:10) ya, wouldn't that be great?

Kelli (00:12) I assume you're trying to be clever because I have no problem in the talking Department.

Dave (00:16) You do not!

Dave (00:17) ... Well, maybe I'm trying to be a little clever with an odd podcast title like that. But really, if employees felt that they could talk and say what was really on their minds, leadership would have a much better chance of making meaningful changes that would help in the business.

Kelli (00:32) I don't know. We get surveys all the time trying to figure out what's working, and what's not. They never really seem to make a difference.

Dave (00:39) Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. Leadership, like any of you listening who are a manager, you only get the filtered feedback of employees, not the whole truth, not all the facts.

Kelli (00:51) Most people don't think leadership really cares about employee feedback, but rather think they are checking a box that they need to check by asking. It's part of the reason why people hold back on what they really feel like saying.

Kelli (01:04) And sometimes, actually, maybe a lot of times, they also fear it will affect their job, that there will be retaliation if they're honest.

Dave (01:13) You said most people think leadership today does not want to hear the truth.

Kelli (01:17) That's the consensus.

Dave (01:19) Why?

Kelli (01:19) To quote Jack Nicholson from the movie A Few Good Men: You Can't Handle the Truth!

INTRO (01:25) Hi, I'm Dave and I've been starting and running businesses all my life. And I'm Kelli, working for the man like a dog for decades. And you are YOU the driven career professional, clawing your way up the ladder of success, maybe running your own business. The next 20 minutes or so is just for you. Welcome to my Job here is done.

Audio Clip (01:48) (Jack Nicholson saying) "You Can't Handle the Truth!"

Dave (01:50) (yelling) Company Ten-Hut!

Kelli (01:53) Don't listen to him. Everyone at ease. And thanks a lot for taking a break to give us about 20 minutes of your time. I'm Kelli.

Dave (02:01) And I'm Sergeant Dave and we're here to talk about career success and entrepreneurial business growth on this podcast. Subscribe or follow us on your favorite app. We don't want you to miss any new "boot camp" episodes.

Kelli (02:14) Oh, for the love of it ... and you can also interact with Sergeant Dork here and me personally at our website. My job here is done.com and on social media at My Job podcast.

Dave (02:26) Hey, you started this by invoking the classic You Can't Handle the Truth. I did that pretty well.

Kelli (02:33) That's pretty good.

Dave (02:34) All I'm doing is playing off your thoughts. I simply meant that when it comes to employee feedback, leadership, owners, and managers really do want the truth about what's going on in their business.

Kelli (02:45) That seems logical, but it's not that easy. This is the one about employee feedback and why it's not always the truth.

Kelli (02:53) And I can tell you that the old way of soliciting employee feedback through surveys and polls is likely not getting you the right information.

Dave (03:01) Hey, leadership does want to know the truth about how employees feel about the business, the work they do, or the decisions that are being made that affect them on a day to day basis. But I do see a huge disconnect between the feedback they receive from surveys and polls and what employees say to one another behind the scenes.

Kelli (03:21) Here's a very common situation. Employees are invited to an all-hands meeting, today, likely virtual, and leadership start telling them about how the quarter is going, and there's always some bad news or disappointing results that are shared.

Kelli (03:35) Whoever's presenting says something like, to counteract this, we need to reverse this trend. Everybody needs to try harder, do better, be more efficient, and asks: "how can I help you with this?"

Kelli (03:47) And the room goes silent.

Dave (03:50) This awkward moment is completely predictable.

Dave (03:54) Because the ask -- Try harder, do better, be more efficient. How can I help you with this? Has literally a million answers. No one in their right mind is going to try to guess what that answer is and make a fool of themselves. So hearing nothing is exactly what should be expected.

Kelli (04:13) And in my opinion, that silence speaks louder than any words. But there's always the kiss-ass or two that may jump in and do a cheerleading chant in front of everyone in full support.

Dave (04:25) And do you think that helps move the message along for some people, listening?

Kelli (04:29) Are you kidding me? Do you know what's happening when the kiss-ass is ass-kissing? (laughs) Text or Slack messages are flying back and forth between coworkers who are listening, either mocking the kiss-ass or texting things like "they're clueless" talking about leadership, they have no idea what we're going through or there's another hour I won't get back in my life.

Dave (04:51) Well, speaking of all-hands meetings, I've participated many times in the dry run before the live event. And I can tell you that leadership will often try to predict when things they want to say might go badly. I've even seen it where managers have asked trusted employees ahead of time to speak up and say something positive if the room goes silent.

Dave (05:13) I don't subscribe to this because I don't have all-hands meetings that allow for open questions. It's not the right forum, and we'll talk about that more and formatting how company meetings could go in a few minutes.

Kelli (05:25) Employees typically know better than leadership what's wrong in the business

Dave (05:29) they do!

Kelli (05:29) and what would work better, but they have huge barriers to expressing themselves.

Dave (05:34) Let's talk about some of those barriers and maybe we can find a way to break them down.

Kelli (05:39) We made a top five list for this. These are what Dave and I believe are the most important reasons employees are either unable or unwilling to let leadership know what they're truthfully feeling, or believing.

Kelli (05:52) Number five, is fear of self embarrassment. They simply don't know how to articulate their feelings, so they just don't say anything for fear of embarrassment.

Dave (06:01) Hey, this could be a self-confidence thing. I think we can help fix that.

Kelli (06:06) Number four, fear of being shunned. They want to fit into their peer group, and they believe saying something out loud will make them look different from their work friends. So they hold back.

Dave (06:17) This is a classic peer pressure problem and it's not just in the business. It's been there since kindergarten. We might have a way to fix that, too.

Kelli (06:26) The number three reason why employees are reluctant to express themselves honestly to leadership is: fear of nothing. They just don't care. Simply, they don't give a shit. They just go to work to exist and could care less about their job.

Dave (06:40) I've got something here from Forbes. This is a great article... We have it in the show notes so you can look it up yourself. The Gallup Organization reminds us every few years that nearly 70% of employees are actively disengaged. We'll talk about this in another podcast.

Kelli (06:58) Number two, is fear of family. They don't have the support of their family, their spouse in particular, and it's holding them back from taking any risks in advancing their career. So they just don't say anything that might rock the boat at home.

Dave (07:11) This is more common than you think. And if you're listening to this and this is you, you're in a tough spot and we appreciate that predicament.

Kelli (07:20) And the number one reason why employees don't tell leadership the truth about what they think is, fear of it's not safe to speak up.

Dave (07:28) Yes. Another article that I have here from Harvard Business Review, again linked in the show notes, is called Why Employees Are Afraid to Speak. James Detert and Amy Edmondson's research showed employees are mostly unwilling to challenge traditional ways of doing things.

Kelli (07:46) They fear for their jobs or are worried about being mistreated or managed out by leadership for speaking up.

Dave (07:52) Detert and Edmondson also discovered what employees were most reticent to talk about were not the problems, but rather creative ideas to improve products, processes, or performance.

Kelli (08:04) And those creative ideas are just what leadership needs to hear.

Dave (08:08) Exactly.

Dave (08:08) So to quickly recap the top five reasons why most of your employees are not able to offer leadership honest feedback about the business.

Dave (08:16) They are: fear of embarrassing themselves because they can't or they think they can't articulate well.

Dave (08:23) Fear of becoming an outcast by their peers.

Dave (08:26) Fear of nothing because they just don't care.

Dave (08:29) Fear of family pushback if they take risks at work.

Dave (08:33) And finally, fear of being demoted, disciplined, or even fired.

Kelli (08:37) Well, you don't need a PhD in cognitive patterns sciences to see that all five of those reasons have the word fear in them.

Dave (08:45) There's really a PhD in cognitive pattern cciences?

Kelli (08:49) I just made that up.

Dave (08:50) (laughing) Okay.

Kelli (08:52) So you could argue that each is very different and that we use the word fear to make a point here, and you'd be right.

Kelli (08:59) But my job here is done when we help get a point across that can make a difference in your career success or the growth of your business. The point here is that fear is what stops people from being forthcoming and honest.

Dave (09:13) If you as leadership can find ways to remove the fear that the majority of people - your employees in this case - have when asked to speak up and tell you the truth about what's wrong, you will then be able to concentrate on the real problems at hand.

Kelli (09:28) Now, if you're using conventional methods of employee polls, surveys, and quote-unquote "Opendoor" policies, you're probably getting the sugarcoated version or nothing at all.

Dave (09:39) The good news is we're going to suggest some ideas in a moment to help spur honest and helpful comments from employees by doing some old-fashioned things differently. But first, a quick story to hopefully show you how bad it can get.

Dave (09:52) I recently attended a company meeting as an observer. I had no relationship with the firm, I was just in the audience and I listened to leadership trying to explain the results of a poor employee survey result. It was all numeric based on a scale of one to ten, with ten being elated and one being very disappointed. The leader said, on a bad result to the entire group, we're down from a 5.1 to a 3.7 and I take this one personally. I thought I was doing a better job here.

Kelli (10:26) Wait for it.

Dave (10:29) That person went on to say, but while I'll take some responsibility, you guys have to understand how hard it is we work and what restrictions we have on options and resources. I'd like to ask you for comments on what we could do better.

Kelli (10:46) Silence, not a peep, right?

Dave (10:49) Did we put the language disclaimer on this episode in the beginning?

Kelli (10:51) I think so.

Dave (10:52) Good, because here it comes. Turn it down if the kids are in the room. I was fucking pissed when I heard that person say those words to their team that I nearly left the room.

Dave (11:05) Really? This leader thought that starting off by saying, I take responsibility on this, as if I failed you. But you guys need to step up as well as in no, not really. You failed me. They thought that was good messaging and that would help. Are you kidding me? Are you wondering why the room went silent?

Kelli (11:28) And in that example, it sounds like the leader failed in front of the whole team. And I guarantee that the texts and slacks were flying around in the background with a lot of pissed off employees venting about the lack of qualified leadership as the real problem there.

Dave (11:43) And I wouldn't be surprised for a New York minute that was happening.

Kelli (11:46) Yes, although poor leadership skills are definitely part of this problem, it's not just unqualified leadership that can cause ineffective employee feedback. It's the old methods businesses choose to still rely on that are at the core of the problem.

Dave (12:02) Yeah, if you want honest feedback, I mean, brutally honest feedback, feedback that may hurt your feelings a bit, but feedback that is usable and correct. You as a leader need to change the way you collect that feedback, and you must recognize some facts and action for them.

Kelli (12:19) First, you need to remove the fear factors we talked about so employees don't fear any ill consequences of speaking up. A Harvard Business Review survey reveals 58% of people say that they trust strangers more than their own boss.

Dave (12:33) What?

Kelli (12:34) Yes, the first step in getting honest feedback is to gain the trust of your employees.

Dave (12:39) And the easiest way to accomplish this is to walk around in person or virtually and talk to employees one on one, informally. It doesn't have to be for hours, and actually it should never be scheduled. And you have to be consistent and make this a habit of yours.

Dave (12:56) I can't tell you in words the power of this, and I guarantee you you'll see many positive and palpable improvements in feedback if you just do this one easy thing.

Kelli (13:09) Remove the fear of speaking up by highlighting employees at random in every meeting or get-together that you hold as leadership. Just randomly call out a few names and mention something positive. Everyone appreciates a little attention - even those that hate their jobs and don't give a shit - maybe especially them!

Dave (13:26) According to Forbes again, global studies reveal that 79% of people ---79% of people --- who quit their jobs cite lack of appreciation as the reason.

Kelli (13:39) Not surprised.

Dave (13:40) So by showing a little appreciation, you have a double bonus going for you. It will help remove some fear of speaking up, and it will help you keep and retain your good employees.

Kelli (13:51) We mentioned fear of embarrassment as one of the reasons employees won't give you feedback. It's often because they're not natural leaders, they're natural followers, and that's great. We need more followers than we do leaders.

Kelli (14:04) And as an employer, you offer perks. It's a big part of the comp package, and perks are even more meaningful to employees today.

Kelli (14:12) Consider offering a third-party public speaking course as a highlighted perk. How can this help? Well, people do not naturally have the Gift of Gab. That's why you call it a "gift."

Kelli (14:23) Those employees who don't speak up often will not write their thoughts in surveys either, for the exact same core reason. They're not comfortable putting themselves out there. They may even suffer from imposter syndrome. We did a podcast episode on that called Here Comes Dunning Kruger. That's a good one to listen to next.

Dave (14:41) And if it's not impostor syndrome, they just may need a little push to help them come out of their shell. And a public speaking course can help.

Dave (14:49) I've met a lot of people who have turned into great communicators after they were exposed to public speaking. Try offering it as a perk in your business. In fact, try it on your own, no matter who you are. If you've never done it before.

Kelli (15:02) Remove the fear of speaking up by not putting your employees on the spot. Like the story Dave just told about that uncomfortable company meeting.

Dave (15:10) Yikes.

Kelli (15:11) That was not the venue to ask for feedback, but what did happen was a quiet riot in text form, knocking leadership and creating a background of unhealthy and unproductive noise.

Dave (15:22) Hey, there is rarely a good reason to stop the train for an hour to have a company meeting. Most attention spans are measured in minutes.

Kelli (15:30) I know, mine is.

Dave (15:34) I love 20 minutes once a week for a live company update. Make it every week, be consistent and have a predictable agenda.

Kelli (15:42) Oh, and no Q and A. No comments directly in the meeting. Don't even ask. It's not the place and will often force the meeting to go over time, and that's a solid no, never any longer than 20 minutes, and it could even be less.

Dave (15:56) Make it less if you can, because the less time that you spend in a forum like that, I think the better the message you get across.

Dave (16:05) Timing is important too. My suggestion is to make the 20 minutes meeting start five minutes past the top of the hour and end 25 minutes after the hour.

Dave (16:17) Why? Well, everybody's always five minutes late anyway, so build that buffer in right from the get-go. When you do the meeting schedule, end five minutes or more before the half-hour point because it seems like everything has to start at the top and bottom of the hour and also keep it on time. You'll really do everybody a favor by shimming them into a really comfortable meeting.

Kelli (16:41) You might be asking" if you're talking about not getting enough or even any honest employee feedback, why are you holding an all-hands meeting with no feedback allowed?

Dave (16:52) Great question.

Kelli (16:54) Think about wrong venue theory. This meeting is about building trust, not about talking about it. Leadership should be concise, clear, and most importantly, honest here on any updates they have.

Kelli (17:07) It's a great place to call out employees by name, pay some attention to people. Offer your sincere appreciation in those cases. Don't mix these with bad news, ssave them for the end of the agenda. People will want to stick around to hear this part.

Kelli (17:22) It's little steps like this that go toward building new or improved trust.

Dave (17:26) I like that.

Kelli (17:27) How about helping to overcome the fear some employees have of being shunned by peers if they speak out, how can you help break those unhealthy bonds?

Dave (17:35) Well, reward programs. Company-wide reward programs like our Keys to Success program that we've talked about before naturally take that fear away. If you'd like to know more about that program, head over to our website myjobhereisdone.com and sign up for our No Spam mailing list, we'll send you some details

Dave (17:55) Any reward program that is done for the right reasons will help break down the "us versus them" barrier.

Kelli (18:03) In this regard, us versus them is always about a lack of trust in leadership and where employees feel they need to band together to emotionally survive the workday. Give that some thought.

Dave (18:14) The next fear is about families, especially a significant other can often cause some employees to hold back.

Dave (18:22) Let's say you're naturally outgoing and kind of aggressive, but in a good way. You run in the Fast Lane and sometimes you miss the corner and you go off the road in your attempt to win.

Kelli (18:33) That sounds like me.

Dave (18:34) Yeah, it does actually.

Dave (18:37) But you also occasionally win. That sounds like me.

Kelli (18:40) Yeah

Dave (18:42) and that's a risk you feel is worth taking in business growth and career success. There are always some risks involved, and one of those risks is having the courage and the thoughtfulness to speak up when it's time.

Kelli (18:56) But if your significant other is very conservative, enjoys a smooth ride, doesn't feel the need to be more ambitious than others, and they are not risk-tolerant, that person loves you, and does not want to see you hurt, so their influence can keep you from speaking up.

Dave (19:13) Hey, here's our advice. I would go tell them - march right into the room ...

Kelli (19:17) (interrupts Dave mid-sentence) STOP! STOP -  edit!

Kelli (19:17) We're not giving away relationship advice on this podcast.

Dave (19:22) But I have relationship ad ...

Kelli (19:22) I Know you have, but you are not. Are you crazy?

Dave (19:25) Okay, no advice.

Dave (19:28) (pause) See how that works?

Kelli (19:30) Shut up. No twisting this around with your trickery.

Dave (19:33) The final and big fear we as leaders need to help employees overcome is the fear that it is not safe to speak up.

Kelli (19:43) Employees are told things like, this is an anonymous online tool and no one knows who makes the responses. Well, guess what? Nobody believes that in this day and age of technology

Dave (19:53) Ya know that's too bad, because actually most of those online tools are anonymous if you set them up correctly. I think the problem is that employees don't believe leadership will do that, so they kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

Kelli (20:05) Well, fear of being fired, fear of getting on the wrong side of your boss, and fear of speaking up all combined together to destroy a business's internal reputation. So the fix here is for leadership to have a coordinated effort that deals with internal reputation management.

Dave (20:23) We don't have time in this episode to go into this in great detail, but we will in another episode, I promise. But think about this. You as leadership will go out of your way without hesitation to protect your external customer facing reputation.

Dave (20:39) So why would you not place the same effort and resources into protecting your internal reputation?

Kelli (20:46) One could argue that it's more important in the long run. And this is how you fix the problem of employees having fear of losing their jobs if they dare to speak the truth.

Dave (20:55) Getting good employee feedback only seems like it is a huge problem to solve. It really is not. Our hope is that we provoke a thought or two around this issue of honest employee feedback and why it's not always simple to get it ... Or for employees to give it.

Kelli (21:13) This is fixable and it starts first with recognizing the reasons why you might not be getting good feedback, then tackling those reasons one by one.

Kelli (21:22) It helps to show interest and appreciation at every interaction. Ask for feedback only in the right settings. Avoid being defensive at all costs and always = ALWAYS - own your mistakes.

Dave (21:36) Thanks very much for listening today. We hope you enjoyed our story: If Employees Could Talk.

Dave (21:42) More and more people listen each week just because of you spreading the word about our podcast. So thank you very much for telling a friend about us.

Kelli (21:49) Let your friends know they can follow us anywhere and everywhere podcasts are available using their favorite app, or at our website - my job here is done.com.

Audio Clip (22:00) You can't handle the truth.

Chuck Fresh (22:03) I'm the announcer guy and I sound as good as the story you just listened to. My job here is done as a podcast production of 2PointOh LLC, thank you and your awesome ears for listening. Want to get involved? Have your own special story to share? Tell us all about it and you might get some airtime just like me. Browse over to myjobhereisdone.com, yes, squish that all together into one word and look for the My Story link ... Until next time ... My job here is done.