No Degree? No Good Pay - Poppycock!

"No Degree? No Good Pay - Poppycock!"

My Job Here is Done™ Transcript (for general use only – machine-generated and it may not be accurate.)

NOTE: This transcript and the audio portion of this episode may contain colorful language that may not be appropriate for all audiences.

Language Disclaimer (00:00) This episode contains colorful language which may not be appropriate in all situations sshhhhh ... Turn it down a bit.

Dave (00:08) Hey, I started recording. Are you ready?

Kelli (00:10) I'm looking over the production notes for this podcast with the title, If you don't go to college, you'll never get paid well and I see we use the word poppycock in the title. Really? Who says that? It's old and out of date.

Dave (00:24) So is what we're going to talk about today, the modern business view on requiring education as an entry-level pass or fail to get a job.

Kelli (00:34) Some job descriptions even go as far to say as you need a degree, any degree. We don't care what it is. Just please have a degree.

Dave (00:41) What good is that? Somebody says, I have a degree in mortuary science and I'm working in marketing. Does that really help that person?

Kelli (00:49) Is there even a degree in mortuary science?

Dave (00:52) There is, and people are dying to get into that field.

Kelli (00:56) Well, most people associate higher education with an unbreakable schedule of go to College after high school. You're old enough at 17 to figure out what you want to learn about. Then go get your high paying dream job.

Dave (01:09) You know what I say to that?

Kelli (01:10) No. What?

Dave (01:11) Poppycock!

Kelli (01:12) Oh, okay.

Intro (01:14) Hi, I'm Dave and I've been starting and running businesses all my life. And I'm Kelli, working for the man like a dog for decades. And you are you the driven career professional clawing your way up the ladder of success. Maybe running your own business. The next 20 minutes or so is just for you. Welcome to My Job Here Is Done.

Dave (01:40) Thank you for joining us today. As John Oliver would say, Hello, hello, hello! Hi, I am Dave.

Kelli (01:46) Are you pounding on the desk?

Dave (01:47) I am. Thank you.

Kelli (01:49) It makes a lot of noise. It's okay. I'm Kelli and it's no poppycock when we say, welcome to the podcast.

Dave (01:56) But before we get started, just a quick reminder that you can learn more about the podcast, listen to all of the previous episodes, you can read some bonus blog material and interact with us at our website. MyJobHereIsDone.com and all over social media at myjobpodcast.

Kelli (02:13) This is the one about what motivates employees to continue or even start their advanced education and how business leadership looks at the changing educational requirements in the workplace.

Dave (02:25) Years ago, career success relied on going to college as a prerequisite to qualify for a certain career path.

Kelli (02:33) Hey, fast forward to today. Is that still true? In many cases, we don't think so.

Dave (02:37) And that's not to say that statistically, employees with undergrad or graduate degrees get hired first and are often paid more. But we think the times they are a changing. And as business owners and leadership, we need to think about hiring and embracing STARs.

Kelli (02:55) Like superstars, rising stars, shooting stars.

Dave (02:58) Yeah, kind of like all of those.

Kelli (03:00) Before we disclose this cryptic STAR thing, let's back up a bit.

Dave (03:04) Sure. Some professions require a degree by law or rule before you can really start working. Doctors, lawyers, nurses, most teachers. Can you name a few others?

Kelli (03:17) Not off the top of my head.

Dave (03:18) Yeah, you're kind of making my point here.

Kelli (03:21) The point is you can start in most careers without an undergraduate degree. Both Dave and I did, and the Google is filled with stories of successful entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs that made a fortune, found fame and glory, or bazillions of others who did just fine with no college degree. Covid changed education in the last few years, we started experiencing a degree gap. Lots of people who planned on getting an advanced degree early on were waylaid by the pandemic in a couple of different ways.

Dave (03:51) You bet.

Kelli (03:51) A lot of people put college on hold by their own choice or by the factors of travel restrictions or school restrictions even though most colleges pivoted to remote learning in an effort to attempt to continue teaching during the pandemic.  We're feeling that gap starting now, years after the start of covid 19.

Dave (04:10) And I think that gap is growing wider for a number of other reasons, including the fact that some people just love to have the experience of going to college in person and actually don't want to do it online.

Kelli (04:20) That's a good point, and I agree with that. I also enjoy an in-person experience.

Dave (04:25) And a lot of people do. And I think that that contributes to the gap amongst an array of other things. As a side note, I personally have always hired first based on attitude, next based on motivation, followed by skills, creativity, and then finally education. Elon Musk recently said of education, “College is basically for fun, not for learning.” I don't know if you agree with that or not, but I for one actually do agree with him. However, I am not bashing college, either is Kelli, and it has its place and time, both of which may be shifting a bit. I tend to prefer hiring STARs.

Kelli (05:06) Are you going to clue everyone in on what you mean by STARs, Dave?

Dave (05:09) Patience is a virtue, Kelli.

Kelli (05:12) You can be a dick sometimes, can't you? More and more people are choosing to work first by necessity. College is ridiculously expensive, take my word for it. And it favors a certain population who either have enough money at the right time or are willing to take out exorbitant student loans and worry about paying them back later and sometimes never doing so. Exactly.

Dave (05:33) All this to be educated in the traditional way, right?

Kelli (05:37) Yeah. Today, more and more people are joining the workforce without receiving a formal degree first.

Dave (05:43) Remember that part without receiving a formal degree first. We're going to get back to that in a minute. First, let's get back to Elon Musk's reason to say college is basically for fun, not for learning. And this is coming from a man with two bachelor's degrees who also went to Stanford for his PhD and lasted a whole two days.

Kelli (06:04) So you have to remember it is Elon Musk. He's not exactly like the typical guy next door, but I get the thought behind the statement.

Dave (06:14) So I was speaking to the guy next door who's actually a marketing genius friend of mine a few days ago. I'd love to say his name, but I don't want to associate him with his brutally honest remark that when he was in college, his primary marketing professor, who had been there for a long, long time, never, ever worked in marketing, never had a marketing job. And he later discovered that nearly everything this guy taught him did not translate to the real world.

Kelli (06:41) I think this happens a lot. I know from my own experience that a lot of adjunct faculty in graduate programs, they haven't necessarily worked in the field of whatever they're teaching. Many times they're handed a textbook and told, here's the material, develop the curriculum.

Dave (07:00) Hey, you listening - Did you ever feel that way? I mean, some will and some won't, but I also think Musk's comment is a positive for college. It's the first real opportunity for groups of people to learn how to get along with each other. Right. I think the environment promotes team skills, tolerance, gives a person a good view of life away from home if they choose to live at school and not commute. In a lot of cases, college also teaches you important practical skills that you can use in your profession, but you can often get those skills elsewhere for less money. And while you're being paid on the job.

Kelli (07:39) Yeah. As opposed to paying for them in college.

Dave (07:42) Right.

Kelli (07:43) You can get those skills working at a restaurant or sweeping floors.

Dave (07:48) How would I get, say, engineering skills working as a custodian?

Kelli (07:53) You can work anywhere to make money to live. But here's an idea. Look for an apprenticeship to help you learn, say, coding or marketing or rocket science. 

Dave (08:04) You can take micro courses, sign up for college or technical school level courses that you can afford. That zero in on the talents that you have and your ambitions.

Kelli (08:14) Go online. Linkedin Learning, as one example, has educational courses on just about everything. And it's inexpensive.

Dave (08:21) I love it. I use it all the time. You can also think of a career path destination, like your dream job and getting to that dream job through a series of thoughtful gateways. Think like this. You want to be a project manager.

Kelli (08:36) Those are pretty good paying jobs.

Dave (08:37) And you want to say design effective customer service programs as an example. You'll likely not get that PM job until you first work as a customer service rep some place. Oh, I get the gateway thing, while working there. Take a few LinkedIn Learning courses, like Kelli said, on project management. And that will be your gateway learning.

Kelli (09:00) Yes. And then look for an entry level project management job. And once there, earn your PMP, which is project management professional. It's a certification, and that's your gateway education.

Dave (09:12) Now all you have to do is look for another gateway job, get paid more, be higher up the ladder of success, and soon you will be viewed as an effective, educated, valuable professional. And nobody will give a rat's ass if you did or didn't get a degree somewhere when you were 20 years old.

Kelli (09:32) And then you can start the whole process over again at that new level.

Dave (09:36) Pro tip. In a majority of cases, it is quite possible that you could achieve that career success and higher pay faster than spending with a capital dollar sign four years on college.

Kelli (09:50) Secondpro tip. Employers love skilled employees, whether they have a college degree or not. If you can do the job, employers are happy.

Dave (09:58) And even though this isn't a contest, third bonus pro tip. It's always a contest. As you get each gateway job, mention in your resume or the interview that it's your personal plan on continuing your formal education in the field. That just goes to show the employer that you're serious about both sides skills, street smarts and formal education.

Kelli (10:24) Yeah, I actually think that's the best pro tip.

Dave (10:28) Applause I win the pro tip contest.

Kelli (10:31) That's a good one.

Dave (10:32) What we're saying here is that you can get the precise skills you need to achieve career success simply by being a STAR

Kelli (10:40) Okay, that's it. You're teasing for far too long. Get to the point. Tell them what a STAR is or I will.

Dave (10:46) Yeah. Well, Besides patience, which you obviously lack, do you have any other virtues?

Kelli (10:49) You’re on thin ice buddy!

Dave (10:53) STARs are people who are Skilled Through Alternative Routes. STARs.

Kelli (11:03) Got it.

Dave (11:03) We learned about STARs from an amazing and thought provoking piece of research from the nonprofit group Opportunity@Work. This is an incredible report that we think hits the workforce education challenges we're facing today squarely on the head. This may be one of the most important reports you as a business leader or company owner, can read. It is linked in the show notes. And as a side, we have no affiliation with Opportunity@Work here with My Job Here Is Done. We've never talked to any of them. We just found this research when we were doing the episode research and we fell in business sense love with their missions and work. Briefly from their webpage and I quote.

Kelli (11:50) Briefly from their webpage, and I quote, Opportunity@Work was founded in 2015, in part to support and grow Tech Hire, a White House initiative launched to connect overlooked communities with technology job openings.

Dave (12:01) Yeah. And the report they did in association with some pretty major names like Walmart and Mackenzie, professors from Harvard and many more, is called Navigating with the STARs. And of course, the STARs acronym meaning Skilled Through Alternative Routes.

Kelli (12:20) We like it because it adds credibility to a theory that is often debated that being in business, is it better to hire a person who has a formal college experience or not?

Dave (12:30) I'm sure that you have your own opinions on how that question should be answered, and we'd love to hear them. Just pop them in the comments section. We'd love to know your thoughts.

Kelli (12:38) Let's recap first, we're not bashing people who chose to pursue a traditional college education.

Dave (12:43) Absolutely not.

Kelli (12:44) Previous generations were taught that there are two paths to take after high school. You go to College now to get a good paying job that requires a degree or you go get a lower paying job now that will not require a degree.

Dave (12:57) We think in most cases save doctors and lawyers and teachers, that's an old way for both employees and employers to think, and it leaves out a lot of the workforce today and will leave out much more in the future.

Kelli (13:12) Next. We also believe there's a shift taking place in the sequence of education. College, in most cases, does not have to be the first thing you do when you start your career. And often it can't be. It can, however, come later in life with huge benefits and rewards.

Dave (13:27) Recall earlier when we mentioned something about college can be a source of good later rather than first. Well, Kelli, you're a STAR.

Kelli (13:38) I am!

Dave (13:41) No problem patting yourself on the back.

Kelli (13:43) Oh, I can't reach, you do it.

Dave (13:45) Yeah, we'll find help for you. You bootstrapped your career without finishing college first. You're the perfect example of a STAR and to make the point that advanced formal education does not need to come first.

Kelli (14:01) Yes. My goal for decades was to get to a point in my life where I could go back to school and finish my bachelor's degree.

Dave (14:07) Was a degree a requirement for your job?

Kelli (14:10) No, it was my own personal goal, but it would also help in my career.

Dave (14:14) Well, what was holding you back?

Kelli (14:15) Life in general. Kids, full time job, long list of other obligations. So my thought was, well, maybe someday.

Dave (14:22) But you did go back.

Kelli (14:24) I sure did. I decided when my kids were in college, it's now or never.

Dave (14:29) Well, that's interesting timing. I bet there were a lot of challenges at that point in your life.

Kelli (14:34) Lots and lots of challenges. And I was asked questions like, why would you want to go back to school at your age? And aren't you sort of old to go back to school? But you know what? College degrees aren't just for 20 somethings anymore. I appreciated my college experience even more as an adult learner. Even though I went to school full time in an accelerated degree program for my undergrad and continued to work full time. It changed my life and my way of thinking about everything.

Dave (15:06) And you didn't stop just with the undergrad, did you?

Kelli (15:08) No. A year after I completed my bachelor's degree. I went back to school for my MBA and I did it all for me. I was at the peak of my current career, and the degree was not going to materially help me where I was at. But that same situation could have really helped someone else. I had other plans. My new graduate education was going to be my gateway education for my next venture, owning my own business and starting a podcast.

Dave (15:35) And I bet you're glad you did that.

Kelli (15:37) You bet. It was perfect for me. I took what I learned over the years working for the man like a dog for decades and contrasted that with what I learned formally during my MBA program. I was able to really appreciate the differences and more importantly, put those new learned ideals into practice for both my benefit and for my customers. For me, being a STAR first and adding formal education later was exactly what I needed for my career success. Dave, what about you?

Dave (16:10) Almost the same thing. But like many classic entrepreneurs, when I started off, I was invincible.

Kelli (16:16) You go get them super dork.

Dave (16:21) That's going to leave a mark. I always had my eye on the prize. Whatever would be the win for me was my goal, and as a result, I had a lot of misses. Now, luckily, early on, I had more wins than misses, so it worked out for me. But all of my moxie was based on learning on the go, self study, not college taught smarts. I also had no problem and no ego surrounding myself with people far smarter than me because I realized from day one that's the key to success. And some of these people had solid high level graduate degrees, but a lot of them, the majority, I can say, came with incredible street smarts and just pure ambition.

Kelli (17:02) But like me, you did pursue some higher level formal education.

Dave (17:06) Yes. And in a minute we'll talk about my favorite form of adding college, like education after you're solidly in your career.

Kelli (17:14) Okay. I will be patiently waiting for that.

Dave (17:17) You just can't let things go, can you?

Kelli (17:21) You taught a course at college without a college degree. How did you pull that off?

Dave (17:25) It just goes to prove that if you are considered an expert and can prove it at something, that something is the value, not where you got it from. As an example, I learned how to interpret twelve lead EKGs. You know, that heart analyzer thing with all the wires that they put on your chest that you see in pictures? Well, I learned how to interpret all the little squiggly graphs on my own back when I spent some time in the healthcare industry. I learned it for me because I was just super interested in it, it really wasn't part of what I was doing, but I was just fascinated by it. I immersed myself in that kind of micro course and I found it fascinating. I would get into conversations with others about the topic, and it turns out that I was being asked on a more and more frequent basis to explain it to this guy or that gal. Because the way I taught myself was simpler than the way formal education was teaching it. I was able to dumb it down, so to speak and that helped other people achieve AHA moments just like me that they couldn't get just like me when studying from formal textbooks or listening in classic lectures.

Kelli (18:38) The key here, it seems, was that you simply found a better way to explain and teach a highly technical topic. That's all. No magic, just proving you were a STAR skilled through alternative routes.

Dave (18:50) Yeah, and I ended up teaching my method of EKG interpretation to resident doctors and critical care nurses, all of whom had advanced degrees in medicine and me, nothing of the sort. Anybody can do this, trust me.

Kelli (19:05) Let's look at what Dave mentioned as his favorite form of adding college-like education. After you're solidly in your career.

Dave (19:12) Once you're in your career, regardless of any previous college degrees or courses, you as an employee clawing your way up the ladder or you as a leader or business owner can each look to add this type of education as an excellent option for professional development.

Kelli (19:32) This is commonly referred to as executive education. These are college level programs designed to be very specific in nature, tailored to the fact that the attendees are already working for a living.

Dave (19:44) Right? And they make it easy for you to obtain that formal education both in cost and in time efficiencies. Many famous universities offer these incredibly useful and efficient programs. Universities like Harvard, MIT, Wharton, and where I went, Northwestern University, just to name a few. Really, just about any of the larger colleges and universities offer executive education programs, some of which are credit courses that you can apply if you're going for some sort of an advanced degree. Some are certificates.

Kelli (20:17) Many of these programs are offered online.

Dave (20:19) They are but I'm going to jump in here and say, after going to a number of these, I suggest the in person option if you can get it. These programs last only a few days or a week in many cases.  The results, in our opinion, are incredible.

Kelli (20:36) Some examples of these targeted college level programs are Supply Chain Management at Rutgers Business School, Accelerated Marketing Leadership Program at Kellogg at Northwestern University, Organizational Leadership at Villanova, and Six Sigma Leadership at Southern New Hampshire University.

Dave (20:53) You can find these short college level programs all over the world. The one I want to talk about last is the Executive MBA program, which takes your work experience into consideration as credit, so to speak. It also crams in the essentials of a classic MBA program over a much shorter period of time, using a combination of self-study and scheduled in person classes. It's awesome.

Kelli (21:17) It's like the Cliff Notes of the MBA program.

Dave (21:20) Right. And the stuff that you're going to really use in your job because you're already in your job and you're doing it because you want to do it, not because it was what you were supposed to do. You just got out of high school, parents are going, you got to go to College. How do you at 17 years old, have any idea of what you want to be when you grow up?

Kelli (21:45) Right. Well, you don't. That's why I went to a nursing school at 17. Right?

Dave (21:50) Right. Exactly. Are you a nurse today?

Kelli (21:52) I am not. But I do have a year of nursing school under my belt.

Dave (21:56) Yay for me if I need CPR. The business practice of requiring a formal education degree to enter the workforce at a reasonable pay scale is changing and the popularity of delaying advanced education and college degrees before entering the workforce is becoming more popular.

Kelli (22:13) Recent and very complete and data driven studies such as The Opportunity@Work sponsored Navigating with the STARs show that employees hired who are STARs, Skilled Through Alternative Routes, is becoming a compelling and adoptable alternative for the vast majority of businesses.

Dave (22:31) Opportunity@Work suggests in their report that employers who can take this approach, a core talent acquisition and retention strategy, is ensuring mobility for workers. Create the pathways to higher paying jobs and communicate that proposition effectively to ensure your workers know that they have a path to higher wages by coming to work for you.

Kelli (22:58) Think of these programs as a beny, your employees will for sure.

Dave (23:02) You bet. Employers can grow and develop their workforce and increase retention and have succession planning and have an award-winning culture by helping employees invest in their careers. Do this by embracing executive education and professional development programs internally.

Kelli (23:24) And last but not least, take it from me, you're never too old to go back to school.

Dave (23:29) You're like 90, right?

Kelli (23:30) No, I'm not. I'm not like 90.

Dave (23:34) Well, when you were walking down the halls, did people think you've lost a child?

Kelli (23:38) Yeah. It's like, whose mommy is here looking for them, right? Somebody forgot their book. Here comes their mommy bringing it.

Dave (23:47) I think all of that is poppycock. I think you had a great time, and I think it was a wonderful experience.

Kelli (23:55) It was. I had a great relationship with all my professors and all my fellow classmates. I loved it.

Dave (24:02) We think education should come at the right time for you, not on some old fashioned stuck in the mud schedule. And we think that by breaking some of the rules, we will make a better, more inclusive, more fair and more effective team of employees. 

Hey, thanks very much for listening today. We really appreciate it. If you like our podcast, all we ask is that you just tell a friend about us, just one friend or a colleague that you think would enjoy the content and the stories that we share.

Kelli (24:30) You can listen to My Job Here Is Done anywhere and everywhere podcasts are available and check out our website for all the latest info on the show and to find out how you can work with us at myjobhereisdone.com.

Dave (24:42) Don't be afraid to be a star … or to hire one.

Chuck Fresh (24:47) I'm the announcer guy and I sound as good as the story you just listened to. My Job Here Is Done is a podcast production of 2PointOh LLC. Thank you and your awesome ears for listening. Want to get involved? Have your own special story to share? Tell us all about it and you might get some airtime just like me.  Browse over to myjobhereisdone.com, squish that all together into one word and look for the MyStory link ... Until next time ... My Job Here Is Done.