Workplace Bullying

"Workplace Bullying"

My Job Here is Done™ Transcript (for general use only – machine-generated and it may not be accurate.) 

Dave (00:00) Hey, were you bullied as a kid?

Kelli (00:02) Wasn't everybody?

Dave (00:03) Hey, I was terrified of this kid named Billy Hyatt. That creep was consistently threatened to beat me up on the way to school. I was, like, worried about it every day for a year. I was kind of was his chosen target.

Kelli (00:17) Did you try to talk to him?

Dave (00:20) Are you kidding me? Maybe that worked for girls back then, but it would have made things even worse for me. I can tell you that right now.

Kelli (00:27) Hey, I've been in a few girlfriends in my day, just watch a YouTube video of Rhonda Rousey, and you'll see what I mean.

Dave (00:34) Oh, my God. That's bad!

Kelli (00:36) Oh, yeah. You know, there's nothing dainty about a good girl fight. Most boys would lose big time to a properly pissed-off girl.

Dave (00:44) Well, remember, we walked to school back then, and it was about a mile or so. Times were so different. Parents would just let kids out on the street, and it didn't matter.

Kelli (00:54) Yeah, nobody was going to take home another stupid kid, right? Nobody wanted one.

Dave (00:59) So Billy Hyatt had plenty of opportunities to torment me. It was emotionally terrifying for that walk to and from school. I tried leaving at different times. I talked to the teacher who did nothing. My mom and dad just offered soft advice. Really ... Nobody had a solution.

Kelli (01:16) So did he kick your ass?

Dave (01:17) You Bet he did! I confronted him and asked to work it out. Bad idea. He beat the crap out of me. And actually, that was the end. He got what he wanted and moved on.

Kelli (01:29) And just when you think bullying is only for kids, you go to work and suddenly one day, you're reliving the same psychological emotions you felt as a kid walking home from school with the bully right behind you.

Dave (01:43) So did Billy Hyatt grow up to be your coworker, your manager, the owner of your business?

Kelli (01:49) Probably. So.

Dave (01:50) Well, let's go to work and kick Billy's ass this time!

Kelli (01:54) Let's get 'em.

Intro (01:56) Hi, I'm Dave, and I've been starting and running businesses all my life. And I'm Kelli, working for the man like a dog for decades. And you are YOU the driven career professional clawing your way up the ladder of success. Maybe running your own business, the next 20 minutes or so is just for you.

Chuck Fresh (02:15) Welcome to My Job Here is done.

Kelli (02:20) Welcome. We're thrilled to have you listening today, especially if your name is Billy Hyatt.

Dave (02:26) Please no!

Kelli (02:27) I'm Kelli and before we get started ganging up on the bullies at work, please consider subscribing or following us on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss any of the new episodes or bonus material we publish on career success and business growth.

Dave (02:42) You can interact with Kelli and I personally at our website. My job here is done dot com. And on social media at 'myjobpodcast'.

Kelli (02:52) Today we're going to look at workplace bullying, but not in the way you might be expecting.

Dave (02:57) Let's get a few things out of the way right away. You're a leader in an organization, a business or company owner, and you are saying to yourself right now, Great, another liberal leaning, about hurt snowflake-feelings that I am forced to write yet another policy to address.

Kelli (03:16) And you couldn't be further from the truth. In a minute, we'll look at policies and how this particular problem bullying is actually pretty policy proof and need so much more than words on a piece of paper.

Dave (03:29) I always looked at bullying as childish and isolated, to quote unquote kind of rank-and-file employees, and that you, as an organizational leader, should kind of counsel the bully for remediation and that bullying is more of an HR problem and they should be well equipped to handle it. And although it doesn't happen very often, I was wrong.

Kelli (03:51) Okay, your head is swelling, Mr. Dave. Careful. It doesn't get too big. It won't fit through the doorway.

Dave (03:57) Don't worry about it. I'll get it through the door. But I hate it when I'm wrong. In a recent discussion with a colleague of ours, he told me a story of a very concerning example of bullying that occurred at the leadership level, not rank and file. And then I started talking to others, including you, Kelli. And there are more scary stories where this problem is clearly more pervasive than I thought.

Kelli (04:20) I've been the target of bullying a few times. It's not a good place to be, but there are always ways to mitigate it, and we'll talk about that in a little bit.

Dave (04:27) But before I tell the bullying story, I was referring to we are basing a lot of this podcast on the research of Doctors Ruth and Gary Namie at the Workplace Bullying Institute, which, by the way, has been studying this problem for 25 years and doing a lot of research on the topic. Their website and a video on adding law around the problem, which they call the Healthy Workplace Bill, is listed in the show notes.

Kelli (04:55) So isn't the term bullying just another way of saying harassment that current policies should cover? The answer to that is no. There's a huge and monumental difference between harassment and bullying that's centered around the law, or in this case, the lack thereof.

Dave (05:11) Before we go there, how big is this problem, Ms. Kelli?

Kelli (05:15) Well, based on current 2021 research by the Workplace Bullying Institute, 30% of adult Americans are bullied at work.

Dave (05:23) That's a lot.

Kelli (05:24) It is. 76.3 million workers are affected.

Dave (05:28) That's a lot.

Kelli (05:28) That's a lot, too. 61.3% of bullying is same gender bullying.

Dave (05:35) Wait, remember that folks, the same gender call out that Kelli just made is part of the entire problem. And dig this. 43% of remote workers are bullied.

Kelli (05:48) That's like bullying from afar.

Dave (05:51) And here's where I was wrong in my impression of the problem. And maybe you are too. A full 61% of the workplace bullies are actually your managers and leaders, according to WBI survey. So it's not just rank and file. Workplace bullying can come from any direction in the organization.

Kelli (06:10) And it's not just a problem with coworkers. Bullying can come from external sources like vendors as well.

Dave (06:16) Yeah, and that's exactly what happened in my friend's story. He was in a management position in a large organization that had many layers of leadership, and he was high enough in the organization to be close to the top, but normally not associating or interacting with the top in a day-to-day setting. It turned out that he discovered that an internal employee was in a questionable business relationship with a very important vendor. And the employee and the vendor both had a very long history with the organization. He found improprieties and unfair relationships occurring that were negatively affecting the organization, both financially and productively. It was his department, and he's a good guy. It was his responsibility. So, he went to try to do something about it. What he didn't know was that both the employee and the vendor had the ear of higher management, which he did not have. So he followed common business practices and advice. He took the high road and investigated it and found evidence that could show that the vendor and the employee were self-serving at the detriment of the organization.

Kelli (07:22) Well, this should be a Slam dunk.

Dave (07:24) Yeah, you think? But with this evidence in hand, he confronted both the employee and the vendor, which resulted in both denying the situation, lying about the facts, and trying to cover themselves.

Kelli (07:36) Oh, boy.

Dave (07:37) I'm cutting out a lot of the middle of the story, which is super interesting. But in the end, both the employee and the vendor having the longtime era of upper management banded together and started rumors about my friend making up lies and false stories to begin a deflection campaign that eventually got him so frustrated that it was easier for him to quit than to fight.

Kelli (08:02) So he was never harassed per se, right?

Dave (08:04) Not in the legal sense of the definition of harassment in the workplace. And that's a very important point to remember about the ill-defined bullying definition.

Kelli (08:13) It was more like psychological warfare. It was designed to cast doubt, create confusion, and damage a reputation.

Dave (08:21) Right. And because the vendor had the era of upper management and he did not, the vendor was assumed to be trusted and correct. He didn't even have a chance. Worse, he later found out that upper management knew of the improprieties that were occurring but was ignoring them.

Kelli (08:37) So let's get into some definitions that we should remember about assault, battery, harassment and bullying.

Dave (08:44) Well, the first three of those four are legal terms, right. And just like we sang in Sesame Street, and one of them is not like the other. I'm not going to sing, I promise.

Kelli (08:56) Yeah, no singing this time. Thank you. Thanks anyway, Dave. No singing?

Dave (08:59) Yeah, I did that in other episodes didn't work out well. We're not going to give you the legal definition of the terms here. We're simplifying them for clarity.

Kelli (09:08) Assault is generally a threat made verbally that someone is going to harm you physically but has not yet done that. You can be arrested and charged with assault following that.

Dave (09:18) Battery is the act of physically harming someone, and it is often the result of first being assaulted. You can be arrested and charged with battery.

Kelli (09:28) Harassment, on the other hand, is more complicated. But there is a definition for harassment in the workplace. It's entitled Seven of the Civil Rights Act of 1990. They state, Harassment is an unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age beginning at the age of 40, which I will dispute. It's not considered older age, but whatever.

Dave (10:02) It is really an important number for people to realize that 40 is kind of like a magic age and age discrimination.

Kelli (10:08) No, I get it. That was just my personal comment.

Dave (10:13) Because you're old? in any event, harassment is well defined. But how about the legal definition of bullying?

Kelli (10:22) There is none.

Dave (10:23) There is actually no legal definition of bullying. And in fact, bullying is rather ill defined, even in the non-legal sense. What does it really mean?

Kelli (10:33) Right.

Dave (10:33) Workplace bullying and its detrimental effects are a new hot topic, but not quite hot enough to create meaningful changes. Yet it's because we often mix bullying up with other terms. For example, a toxic company culture is often discussed interchangeably with the legal concept of a hostile work environment. However, a crucial difference exists between those two concepts. Only a hostile work environment provides an actionable claim in court under Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and related anti employment discrimination laws.

Kelli (11:10) Since bullying is ill defined, let's try to put a label on it that we can use to help differentiate between the other bad things that are better defined in the HR and legal aspect of employment.

Dave (11:20) And the way we're going to do that is we're going to provide the my job here is done. definition of Bullying and it goes like this. “Bullying when you detect a pattern of manipulation at work in ways that make you question your desire to continue employment with the company, and where you feel powerless to respond.”

Kelli (11:42) The key here is manipulation. You know, when you're being harassed, you can read all about it in your employee handbook. Under harassment, you can tell if you're assaulted or physically abused. But how do you prove you're being manipulated?

Dave (11:55) Hey, in my friend's story, was he assaulted?

Kelli (11:58) No.

Dave (11:59) Was he the victim of battery?

Kelli (12:02) No.

Dave (12:03) Was he harassed in the definition of employment law? Probably not. Was there any clear policy that was specifically violated? Not really. But he was manipulated and that's bullying.

Kelli (12:16) Bullying is a cunningly, sophisticated action that works very well. It's often immune to policy because it's ill-defined and because there are no laws around bullying.

Dave (12:26) It can take the form of intimidation, humiliation, sabotage, ridicule in front of others, being lied about, exclusion, and receiving repeated criticism without just cause. Margaret Kohut wrote in her book The Complete Guide to Understanding, Controlling and Stopping Bullies and Bullying at Work, says these aggressions can leave employees feeling on guard, anxious, intimidated, fearful, powerless, incompetent, and ashamed.

Kelli (12:57) And they do. If you're not carving out a definition and action plan for bullying in your organization, you're silently killing the culture, causing retention issues, productivity loss, maybe even cover ups. But most of all, you're allowing human beings to be abused in front of you without the cover of the law to protect them.

Dave (13:16) It is worse than you think. Workplace bullying is an art that some people strive to be very good at and take pleasure inflicting on others. Listen to this narrative from an unknown source we found on the internet. We think it came from a higher education Institute, but the PDF we read and found did not cite the source, so apologies in advance for the lack of attribution.

Kelli (13:39) It's called Beware of the Clever bully. A successful workplace bully is usually very clever in their tactics. They rarely resemble the stereotype. Their methods are very subtle, disguised with all the right behaviors, and in that lies their treachery. People respect and trust the successful workplace bully, and they quietly betray that trust when necessary to fulfill their own ambitions. Their ends always justify the means. And if the bully is particularly good at this, no one except the victims see the betrayals. In some cases, even the victims don't recognize what happens.

Dave (14:19) Yeah, and it gets worse and worse.

Kelli (14:21) A highly skilled bully usually has the dedication, focus and business acumen to create success, or at least the appearance of success. Then they are honored and promoted, held up as an example of a company centric leader. They're rewarded while the frustration builds among their targets of bullying and intimidating, backstabbing, and manipulating. For them, life has become an upside-down hell.

Dave (14:46) A skilled, clever bully displays an elaborate, complex set of behaviors to exploit people around them. Those who only consider bullying to be blatant, aggressive behavior are missing the point. Any pattern of intentional, socially cruel behavior is bullying, including the subtle tactics of deceit, distortion, misrepresentation, and misdirection. When the penalty for resisting someone is destruction of your position and reputation, it's fair to describe that person as a bully. And using this broad definition, bullying has reached epidemic proportions in the American workplace. It can be that bad time to do something about it, and your policies likely do not have the right guidance for bullying written in them.

Kelli (15:37) A funny thing happened on the way to the whole reason we have and need policies. All policies today that govern human behavior started out as one sentence on a single sheet of paper, likely on the wall in the kindergarten, remember? Yeah. Remember it said Always be kind.

Dave (15:54) Yeah. You need no bully policy. If society could just do one simple thing that's always be kind. But unfortunately, we can't. So, policies add more sentences to remind us we should do the right thing. And here's the instructions. How then some idiot comes along, does something not right, and another sentence is added to the policy, and then the policy grows to dozens or hundreds of pages only because people do the wrong thing and need to be reminded.

Kelli (16:25) So are we going to give you tips on how to write a good bullying policy now?

Dave (16:30) No. For that, we suggest you go to the Workplacebullying.org website that's workplace bullying.org and support Doctor’s Ruth and Gary Namie’s ideas and missions to tackle this problem in detail. Again, the website and more info on the Workplace Bullying Institute is in the show notes. They have everything on that website that you need.

Kelli (16:55) But we do have another step or two to follow as a leader or business owner that has nothing to do with policy creation but has everything to do with preventing bullying from damaging your business, your reputation as an employer, and most importantly, your duty to protect your employees from harm.

Dave (17:12) Here is the classic flowchart that you can find on the Internet for employees to use if they feel they have been bullied at work. And yes, I've seen this used, and it sucks as advice. Number one, they should first have a meeting with your manager, then take the issue to HR, then stand up for yourself and confront the bully and then quit and find a better place to work.

Kelli (17:37) These all have huge failure points. Number one, have a meeting with your manager. Your manager could be the problem and statistically is right. So, the step of meeting with your manager may not be used.

Dave (17:48) You can take your issue to HR and we think it's a great idea. HR is a good choice, and you should approach them. HR should be on your side, at least in terms of giving your concerns a fair shake. But employees who are most susceptible to bullying may also be worried that by going to HR, things will be exposed and made worse for them, especially if it's a superior that is causing the bullying as opposed to appear next.

Kelli (18:16) Stand up for yourself and confront the bully.

Dave (18:20) You see where that got me? Billy Hyatt. Billy, if you're listening. Oh, boy. And for God's sakes, think about this. I was eight years old! Why do I even remember that kid's name and that situation all these years later?

Kelli (18:35) Well, he did beat the crap out of you.

Dave (18:38) I think mostly bullying is a powerful psychological tool. Oh yeah, and I bet you our beloved listener can also relate to something like this in your life.

Kelli (18:49) And most people don't actually like confrontation and avoid it like the plague. So this may also not be an option for most people. Three down, one to go.

Dave (18:58) And then there's number four, quitting your job. Is this really a good idea? At the time, the only reason why you think about quitting your job in this case is because of potentially just an isolated instance over bullying. It's just consuming you. You love your job. Otherwise, come on. We as employers are forcing good people out because we're missing a step in this process.

Kelli (19:22) We think you should add a step right before the step an employee will take and quit their job.

Dave (19:27) And we think that step is contact the organization's legal advice line.

Kelli (19:32) Yeah, give your employees’ controlled access to a legal review of their concerns.

Dave (19:37) I have to pause here for a second. I'm just looking out into the Internet, and I can see some of you shuddering and running away from your podcast app. Don't be scared, but please hear us out. This is not as bad as you think. As employers, we know we can be held liable for our actions or in actions with respect to employees, regardless of what we write in our policies.

Kelli (20:01) In our episode Work Life Balance … I'm not in the mood! We suggest that once an employer reaches a critical mass, they should add the role of ombudsmen so employees can go to a non HR based neutral entity to help them feel comfortable reporting issues just like this. For more on how we see that role working in business, have a listen to that episode.

Dave (20:22) Yeah, and along the same lines of the Ombudsman, offering legal advice to employees may actually help you in a lot of ways, especially in the gray area of bullying. Here's the message that you could potentially write into your bullying policy. If, after following the advice in the workplace bullying policy, you continue to feel you have no recourse and cannot solve a problem where you suspect you're being bullied, please take some time to collect your thoughts, specifically document your concerns, and then call this number to arrange for a free consultation with a third-party legal counsel.

Kelli (21:01) As an employer, you want to know if something is brewing that can get you in trouble. And unless you're at the root of doing something wrong, there's nothing to worry about here. Rut-ro-Rorge! We have some ideas we can share that make this employee benefit valuable to all parties. And no, this is not asking for a lawsuit to happen. It's nipping a lawsuit in the bud before bad things happen.

Dave (21:23) Employers today are offering all kinds of third-party professional advice to their employees as a job benefit financial advice, health advice, emotional counseling, help on buying a home, investing taxes, you name it. Why not offer a way for them to get some legal advice as well?

Kelli (21:41) Don't dismiss this just because it might seem shockingly new or at odds with conventional wisdom. Spend a little time thinking about this and how it could actually be a huge benefit to your organization and culture.

Dave (21:53) We mentioned that bullying, for the most part, is ill defined and has no legal recourse for the employee. And I think we all agree that bullying at work is bad for business.

Kelli (22:04) Yeah, we truly believe that bullying is hiding in plain sight in your organization if you're large enough to not have “owner-eyes” on everyone at all times. We also know that bullying is sinister and clever and is a form of harassment that doesn't fit nicely in current employment law in most areas of the world.

Dave (22:23) We were glad to find Workplace Bullying Institute's excellent research, tremendously valuable advice and training on workplace bullying, and we suggest that you head over to their website to learn more. Now. Of note, we are not affiliated in any way with WBI. We just found them incredibly important, and this is just such an important topic that it can't be ignored any longer.

Kelli (22:46) Here's a bit more on the legal front. In the absence of US federal legislation prohibiting generic workplace bullying, a few States are considering legislation. About 30 States have introduced some form of workplace antibullying bills in recent years. This according to the Healthy Workplace Campaign, which is championed by Doctors Ruth and Gary Naming. You can get more information on the Healthy Workplace bill@healthyworkplacebill.org.

Dave (23:14) As an example of US state legislation. Massachusetts introduced bills that would prohibit all, quote unquote abusive conduct against employees, even if it isn't based on protective classifications. It's stalled, though, it seems. Tennessee's Healthy Workplace Act prohibits bullying in the workplace, but it only applies to public employers, so it needs more teeth.

Kelli (23:39) And since January 2015, California businesses are required to train supervisors on how to identify abusive conduct as part of their sexual harassment prevention training. But it stopped short of mentioning bullying characteristics.

Dave (23:53) Folks, this is a huge problem for everybody, and it's just going to get worse. We need to get a handle on this now. On a positive note, in 2020, Puerto Rico enacted the first workplace bullying law in the US. So it's coming, folks. The question is, as an employer or a leader, will you get in front of this problem or wait until you're bullied into doing something about it?

Kelli (24:21) Thanks for listening today. We hope you enjoyed the story and the topic. We have dozens of these short, easy to listen to episodes available anywhere you listen to podcasts. Just search For My Job Here Is Done podcast and you'll find us waiting for you.

Dave (24:35) And if you find our advice interesting, we have a number of ways you can work with us. Head over to our website, myjobhereisdome.com

Chuck Fresh (24:45) I'm the announcer guy and I sound as good as the story you just listened to. My Job Here is Done as a podcast production of 2PointOh LLC. Thank you and your awesome ears for listening. Want to get involved? Have your own special story to share. Tell us all about it, and you might get some airtime just like me. Browse over to myjobhereisdone.com - ya, squish that all together into one word and look for the "My Story" link ... Until next time ...My job here is done!