You're Fired! NO ... I'm Fired!!

"You're Fired! NO ... I'm Fired!!"

My Job Here is Done™ Transcript (for general use only – machine-generated and it may not be accurate.)

NOTE: This transcript and the audio portion of this episode may contain colorful language that may not be appropriate for all audiences.

Language Advisory (00:00) This episode contains colorful language which may not be appropriate in all situations. Shh. Turn it down a bit.

Dave (00:08) Hey, how's work going?

Kelli (00:10) Not too bad. Same old, same old. Getting pretty tired of all the leadership changes lately working on my last nerve.

Dave (00:18) Well, you've been a little bitchy lately, so I just thought I'd ask.

Kelli (00:22) Oh, listen here, Mr. Calm, Cool and Collected. If you had as many dumb meetings as I do, back to back, you'd be a little bitchy, too.

Dave (00:29) I know for sure I have more meetings than you do. Let me see your calendar.

Kelli (00:33) Oh, okay. Now it's a competition. Whatever. Here you go.

Dave (00:38) Yeah, that's a lot of meetings, but it's certainly no record breaker. But what's this?

Kelli (00:43) What this? Oh, I don't know. That just popped up. Meet with Jenny and HR at 430

Dave (00:50) on a Friday.

Intro (00:55) Hi, I'm Dave. And I'm Kelli, and this is My Job Here Is Done. If you really want that next promotion or you're a rising star entrepreneur, we have some stories to tell that will absolutely help you. I've been starting and running businesses all my life. And I've worked for the man like a dog for decades. Together, we'll share stories, ideas, and notions that will help you absolutely soar past that cruiser sitting next to you. And if you're grinding forward with your growing business, we know where the landmines are. Let's find them. Hey, it's only about 20 minutes. What do you have to lose? Nothing or everything.

Dave (01:40) Well, Hi there. Thanks for joining us again today. I'm Dave.

Kelli (01:43) And I'm Kelli, A-K-A. The Bitchy Co-Host according to Dave.

Dave (01:48) Well, you know, I call them as I see him.

Kelli (01:50) Welcome to the podcast. Before I get fired, just a quick reminder that you can learn more about the podcast and listen to all the previous episodes at myjobhereisdone.com and on social media at myjobpodcast.

Dave (02:03) This is not the one about the techniques you should use to fire somebody. You can find that all over the internet. This is the one about how you can help an employee fire themselves for the benefit of everyone.

Kelli (02:17) Yikes. You're going to need to explain that.

Dave (02:20) Well, you're likely curious about how an employee fires themselves. Yeah, well, no one should be surprised when they're fired or let go. The writing usually is on the wall. You know if you did something wrong, or if you're underperforming. You may not know the details, but you know something's up.

Kelli (02:40) And there lies the problem. You might not know the details is the trigger for all kinds of bad things.

Dave (02:46) Let's break this down. When we say how to help an employee fire themselves, we literally mean that giving honest and continuous feedback to an employee who is doing a poor job will allow that employee to know that they're going down the wrong path.

Kelli (03:01) They also know that without making the right changes, they're working on firing themselves. Hence our mantra here - No surprises.

Dave (03:09) No surprises.

Kelli (03:11) We're using the term fired here very generally just to get the point across.  We think there's actually three ways to lose your job. Let's put some definitions in place first to help us frame this conversation.

Dave (03:24) Okay. What's number one?

Kelli (03:25) “Fired”

Dave (03:26) Fired. I don't want to say the classic you're fired.

Kelli (03:30) Yeah. We're just saying fired.

Dave (03:31) We're just saying fired.

Kelli (03:32) Yeah.

Dave (03:33) Because we don't want to be political.

Kelli (03:34) Political?

Dave (03:38) Well, when you put it with fired and then you associate it with another person who used to say “you're fired”, that was actually the wrong way to use your fired - The TV show The Apprentice.

Kelli (03:50) Yeah.

Dave (03:50) Nobody did anything that warranted being fired.

Kelli (03:54) Oh, right. That was all just for entertainment purposes. Right?

Dave (03:57) Well, I don't know. People use fired wrong in a lot of different situations. The term fired should be reserved for clear, well-defined, violations, things like breaking company policies, proven acts of harassment, discriminatory behavior, insubordination, and, of course, anything criminal. It's normally always an event that is with cause. It's got to be bad for you to use the term you're fired.

Kelli (04:24) Right.

Dave (04:24) Number two is “let go.” Very simple. You were let go or I'm letting you go.

Kelli (04:30) This is the most common form of termination. It includes patterns of poor performance, personality conflicts with others.

Dave (04:37) Uncooperative attitudes, those that don't reach the level of insubordination.

Kelli (04:42) And a host of other reasons.

Dave (04:44) It's also used for the convenience of the company in At Will employment situations, to simply release an employee for any reason at all, with or without cause.

Kelli (04:53) And the third way to lose your job is to get “laid off.”

Dave (04:56) But that's a special case, and we're going to talk about that in a few minutes. Let's lump the first two together and take a deeper dive.

Kelli (05:01) All right.

Dave (05:02) We're going to take each one of those in order, and we're going to look at the emotional and business impact they create. We're going to start with “you're fired.”

Kelli (05:10) This is the perfect example of where leadership messaging is critically important.

Dave (05:15) Absolutely. Because in this case, you are not just firing somebody. Now, everybody knows that somebody just got fired and they don't know why.

Kelli (05:24) And that can be very unsettling.

Dave (05:26) And here's the rub. Leadership cannot tell the employee base why. Let's look at an analogy. There's a local shooting and somebody gets hurt and you're worried, is there somebody out there running around with a gun or whatever?

Kelli (05:41) Right. Are they going to be coming in your house next?

Dave (05:43) Exactly. Police can't tell you the exact reason why. But what you will hear as messaging from law enforcement is something to the effect of the public does not need to worry. This was not a random act. This was a deliberate, specific event. Everybody relax.

Kelli (06:01) And then people don't worry that something's going to happen. There was a situation. It's over. No more worries.

Dave (06:11) And that's what leadership must message when somebody gets fired and they can't actually tell the whole story.

Kelli (06:17) Because really, is it everybody's business why Joe Schmo got fired?

Dave (06:22) Not really. But it becomes everybody's business if it creates FUD, fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

Kelli (06:29) Well, that said, no matter what the reason is that someone gets fired, I think the other colleagues are going to feel a bit threatened knowing that a coworker was fired. They're thinking, well, am I next?

Dave (06:39) And included in that messaging? This pro tip - Never apologize to the rest of the staff for terminating an employee. Never compare that employee publicly against another. It's a false narrative.

Kelli (06:52) Yes. Less is more, right?

Dave (06:54) Less is more in this particular case.

Kelli (06:55) And here's another pro tip - Don't schedule a calendar invite at nine in the morning to meet in HR at 4:59 on a Friday.

Dave (07:06) Pro tip, you're fired. Do you still have that meeting on your schedule?

Kelli (07:11) No, I deleted it. I decline. No, thank you.

Dave (07:16) I'm not sure if that works or not.

Kelli (07:18) But it works for me. I don't see it there anymore.

Dave (07:21) Okay, How about the employee that is not performing well? It's not one of those cases where they've done something egregious. It's one of those situations where we're just going to have to let you go.

Kelli (07:35) Let's talk about some of the examples of underperformance here, like lack of job knowledge, inability to increase knowledge base, poor quality of work, inability to perform required tasks. Can't work with the team. Missed deadlines.

Dave (07:50) Yeah. These are all examples of things that I think are potentially correctable. That's why we're not going to fire this person. We may have to let them go. But if we need to take that step, what is the effect on other employees?

Kelli (08:04) Not releasing poor performers sends a bad message to everyone. Why should I bust my ass when that guy just cruises, underperforms, performs poorly, et cetera, fill in the blank, with no consequences.

Dave (08:17) Everybody knows who these colleagues are, and they're waiting for leadership to address the issues.

Kelli (08:23) You know, in the end, the colleagues who are your best performers are the ones picking up the slack for these guys, and they resent it.

Dave (08:30) That's a very good point. I think we need to just sit back and think about that for a second. As soon as you put somebody into the team that is a C player amongst A players and B players, all the A players and B players are working harder.

Kelli (08:43) You bet. And they know they are. They recognize the C player and they know what they have to do to get the work done. Because as a team, you have a collection of work that has to get done.  If you have the weakest link, everybody has to chip in and make it work to accomplish whatever it is for the team.

Dave (09:01) And in a lot of cases, when that's happening, that team will pick up the extra work.

Kelli (09:06) Absolutely. Because they care about their work.

Dave (09:09) Exactly.

Kelli (09:10) They actually enable the C player to continue because when leadership looks at the big picture, the work is getting done so what's the problem?

Dave (09:18) And if leadership isn't seeing that because they're not doing continuous performance reviews, they create a monster that only the team knows about.

Kelli (09:28) And you're not doing the C player any favors either, because they're not learning, they're not growing, they're stagnant. And guess what? They're scared because they know everybody else knows that they're a little bit incompetent. They can't keep up.

Dave (09:44) Right. And the longer you wait to remove C players or poor performers from the team, sometimes you let them linger for years - I've seen that happen so many times - The longer you wait, the harder it is to terminate them.

Kelli (09:57) Okay, now circling back to number three. Laid off

Dave (10:00) Yes. Rarely, if ever, used. Never substitute laid off for let go. Laid off is really a term meaning that an event is occurring for the convenience of the company. A meaningful percentage of employees are going to be eliminated. It should not be a term used just to release let go or fire someone.

Kelli (10:21) However, job elimination is often a term used to cover up for a termination for cause. So here's the rub. There are a litany of reasons why you say or don't say certain things in the hiring or firing process. State, province, territory, federal government laws all come into play, as do Labor Union, collective bargaining agreements and employment contracts. Way too complex for discussion here. Just be aware that there are good reasons for the use of some of these terms.

Dave (10:51) And a host of bad reasons, too.

Kelli (10:54) Exactly.

Dave (10:55) Okay, let's be helpful here, shall we?

Kelli (10:57) Sure.

Dave (10:58) What's progressive discipline versus performance improvement plans?

Kelli (11:04) Just the terms alone define them. One has discipline in it and the other one has improvement in it. In my mind, progressive discipline is a step wise goal.

Dave (11:15) To correct one problem.

Kelli (11:17) To address one problem.

Dave (11:18) If you've identified something, this is not good. It's not global, it's not big, it's not huge.

Kelli (11:24) But you're documenting.

Dave (11:25) Right.

Kelli (11:25) And so the progressive discipline part would be you're getting an oral warning, you're getting a talking to. Now we're going to write it down. Now we're going to have a written warning. Now you may have a suspension. Guess what? You are walking yourself out the door.

Dave (11:38) And you know you should know that you're walking yourself right out the door.

Kelli (11:42) Absolutely.

Dave (11:43) So again, no surprises.

Kelli (11:45) Right.

Dave (11:46) Performance improvement plans, however, are much broader. You can have some employee that you may have thought had a better skill set than they do, but they're not cutting it on the team. Performance improvement could be, I really like Tommy. However, I need to do some planning with him on improving his performance, which could include special training. It could include some coaching.

Kelli (12:08) It could include some professional development opportunities.

Dave (12:11) Exactly.

Kelli (12:12) With the goal that Tommy will come up to the level where you want them to be having these educational or other opportunities to improve.

Dave (12:22) Contrast that with the progressive discipline. And you're, in the beginning, making the assumption that this person is going to fail anyway.

Kelli (12:30) It's not going to work out.

Dave (12:31) And what you're doing is you're crossing your T’s, you're dotting your I’s, and you're putting the check mark in the appropriate place.

Kelli (12:36) You're getting your Ducks in a row. Let's try to think of every analogy here. I was trying to be funny. Yeah, okay, whatever.

Dave (12:47) Here's what we've discovered over the last couple of decades. Progressive discipline usually results in somebody not being with the company anymore. And well done performance improvement plans result in a better employee.

Kelli (13:02) Absolutely. Two ends of the spectrum.

Dave (13:04) Both, however, need the theory of continuous feedback applied because you can't let them linger. You can't just say we're putting on a performance improvement plan. We expect you to do the following, check back with me in 90 days right now.

Kelli (13:19) I'll let you know whether you are successful or not.

Dave (13:21) That's just not going to work.

Kelli (13:22) No, that doesn't work.

Dave (13:24) We're going to give you a tip or two on what we've learned works really well in performance improvement plans. It's really a two step process. And we'll explain in a minute.

Kelli (13:33) And here's another situation that can be controversial.

Dave (13:36) We're just filled up with them.

Kelli (13:37) Are we? There's a new guy in the office and he wants to clean house.

Dave (13:41) Yeah. Somebody new comes in to run the organization or the unit. And this strikes fear in the hearts of everyone because you have no idea what to expect.

Kelli (13:50) Yeah, everybody's scared.

Dave (13:52) And yes, for good reason. And sorry about this, folks. This may sound a little harsh, especially to my liberal friends, who I love and adore, who are going to be cringing here. Nothing is forever except death and taxes, as they say. You, me, even Kelli, who's deleted a calendar invite to get fired. But regardless, everyone is always on a continuous job interview.

Kelli (14:17) Companies need to change and reinvent constantly, and so do the employees.

Dave (14:22) New managers and leaders will have their own ideas on how to run things. They are the new boss, and you have to reproduce yourself.

Kelli (14:30) And you shouldn't be afraid to have to do that.

Dave (14:33) No, it happens in a lot of businesses, naturally. Let me give you an example. If you're working for, say, a municipality or a city government, it's a perfect example. People in those jobs historically work there for many, many years. This is the quintessential I started in the city of X, and I retired in the city of X.

Kelli (14:55) Right.

Dave (14:55) There are some really good reasons why that's a good work environment. One of those good reasons why is that you are literally changing to a new job with each voting cycle.

Kelli (15:08) Boy, I wouldn't even have thought about that. But yes, that's true.

Dave (15:11) So you're literally working in a new job with new people every couple of years a new boss, and you need to adapt. And these people who work in municipalities, they're used to it, they expect it and they're good at it.

Kelli (15:24) And they probably enjoy having that change.

Dave (15:26) So if you're having some problems adapting to the change in your business, go seek out somebody that's in that type of a business and ask them how they cope.

Kelli (15:36) Always bring a positive attitude to work every day, and just do your job the best you can. That's how people stay employed, period. We mentioned earlier that it's our firm belief that nobody should ever be surprised about being fired or let go. We want to add that no employer wants to get rid of good people either. Ever. It's a giant waste of money to spend the time to recruit, negotiate, hire, onboard, integrate, coach, and gain trust in an employee. We rarely, if ever, calculate that cost.

Dave (16:07) Unless you are me.

Kelli (16:08) Right. Unless you're Dave.

Dave (16:10) So I did a lot of back of the napkin math on this over the years, and I am convinced that those data show that you will spend the equivalent of an employee's yearly salary in just the first six months getting this process right.

Kelli (16:27) That's a ton of time, effort, and money. Don't waste it ever again.

Dave (16:32) Don't waste it ever again.

Kelli (16:33) Stop that.

Dave (16:34) And you can stop it by just changing some of your processes a little bit. And if you can't stop it, you can greatly reduce it.

Kelli (16:42) Well, what can you do to mitigate the chances of having to ask someone to leave?

Dave (16:46) Well, we'd like to suggest the first rule is hire carefully, bid farewell fast.

Kelli (16:53) The term hire carefully means use the minimum toolset necessary to hire a known to others to be good employee.

Dave (17:02) Okay. Time to dissect a little known to others to be a good employee.

Kelli (17:08) And good means just that. Not bad.

Dave (17:10) Yeah. And we're not talking about something like criminal history here because there are many good people out there that made a one time mistake, which in a lot of cases should not be held against them.

Kelli (17:20) Agree.

Dave (17:21) When we're talking about good, I mean, good, as in the person has a demonstrable work reliability record that shows stability in past jobs. A reference check supports the good in them, and they have shown that they can prove their skill set and people skills. And you can get some of this stuff out of them during the interview, especially if you switch the interview up. And we have a podcast episode that talks a little bit about that.

Kelli (17:49) Yes. Listen to Toss This Salad Out for more information about that.

Dave (17:52) Don't waste time on unnecessary tests in multiple interviews. You're going to make the wrong decisions just as often going overboard as you do, using your gut and basic instincts and some basic information to guide you. You decrease costs, actually, by hiring carefully and quickly.

Kelli (18:12) Make sure your new hire knows the rules. They should be crystal clear on the getting to know each other period that's agreed upon at the hire to be At Will.

Dave (18:21) And Kelli used the term At Will as in At Will employment, which is really very basic. It means that the employer and the employee do not have an employment contract and either one can leave for whatever reason at any time. It's a legal thing. You need to look it up. And Kelli also just mentioned the getting to know each other period. And I know a lot of you out there are just going, isn't that the probationary period or something?

Kelli (18:47) But, you know, an orientation period is more suitable for that purpose.

Dave (18:52) Sam, we want to make sure that this is right for both of us. So we have a 90 day plan to follow here. If we both feel good after that, you're eligible to participate in our benefits and perks. And to be fair, during the orientation period, we will accrue those perks for you. That way, if we agree to work together after the period, we're all squared up.

Kelli (19:11) Awesome.

Dave (19:12) The important part of that is it sets the stage and it gave a start and an end. It was also very clear in saying this is a test and it goes both ways.

Kelli (19:21) It's not just a test of you, it's a test of us as well.

Dave (19:25) Hey, listen, employer hiring manager, HR.

Kelli (19:30) This place sucks. I'm leaving.

Dave (19:32) Sometimes that happens, right? Absolutely. It's not always the employee that sucks, right?

Kelli (19:37) Exactly. A bad fit can go both ways.

Dave (19:40) So when your new employee is in this particular phase of development, whether you want to call it an orientation period or getting to know you period, remember to be tolerant, but be quick to make corrections and do continuous evaluation during this period as well. You should be feeding back to the new hire so they can either correct or accept if you see signs of trouble.

Kelli (20:03) Any patterns of concern or a lack of skills or cooperation.

Dave (20:07) Yes, in those cases, bid farewell fast.

Kelli (20:11) You don't need to wait the 90 days.

Dave (20:13) No, you do not. This is the time where you make the most important decision of that person's career with you and potentially with their career in general. If you're continuously monitoring this person during the orientation period and you start to see these patterns of things that make you feel uncomfortable, now is the time to let that person go.

Kelli (20:32) Yeah, you have the out.

Dave (20:34) But what if it's after that orientation period and you begin to see these deficiencies?

Kelli (20:39) Now what?

Dave (20:39) Now what?

Kelli (20:40) This is where the performance improvement plan comes into play and where you need to be quick and on the ball. If you let this linger, your employees will lose faith in your ability to hire good people. It will promote this thinking - If they can get away with it, so can I.

Dave (20:54) For some people, and that creates a toxic work environment and it stomps on the throat of efficiency. This is a problem that will cost you money.

Kelli (21:03) Pro Tip - A performance plan has these two main components. One is the reason why we're doing a plan, and two, the date the plan is over. That's it.

Dave (21:13) Kiss. I actually think that was your cue to say keep it simple, stupid. But thanks, Kelli. We're not going into our suggestions on how to put this together today, and you know how to do it anyway. We're just highlighting the two important parts of a performance improvement plan.

Kelli (21:41) If there's a correction of the reason why before the end date.

Dave (21:45) Yeah, that's great for all.

Kelli (21:47) If there is not and you've been fair in your feedback, then no one is surprised as to what is happening on the end date.

Dave (21:54) The goal here is to coach, grow, enable, and ultimately retain your good employees. Nobody wants to be a part of the process of losing an employee. HR hates it. Managers hate it. Employees hate it.

Kelli (22:10) Everyone hates it.

Dave (22:11) There's no good that comes out of it at all.

Kelli (22:14) For new team members, hire carefully, but quickly. Then really watch and really coach. But as soon as you see trouble, bid farewell fast.

Dave (22:23) And for the team member that goes off the rails a bit who is past an orientation period no matter how long they've been with you, quickly establish a performance improvement plan with the clear reason why it is needed and the absolute end date. It doesn't matter what else you've got in there, as long as you've got those two components, then work fairly to help that person achieve success. It's really in your best interest as a leader to help that person along as best you can. However, should that person fail to correct, it's also in your best interest as a leader to let them go.

Kelli (22:59) Thanks very much for listening today.

Dave (23:01) If you like our podcast and I think you do, please tell a friend about us. And it just needs to be one friend who you think might enjoy the content and the stories we share.

Kelli (23:10) You can listen to My Job Here Is Done anywhere and everywhere podcasts are available and for all the latest info and how you can work with us, check out our website. It's easy to remember myjobhereisdone.com.

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